I'm having a terrible time trying to get a good volume output on mastering my CD. According to my level meters on the output, I'm close to 0 db output and occasionally in the yellow, but when I burn the CD, the output level is really low and I need to turn my device (CD player, car CD, home DVD, etc.) way up to get a good level. What am I missing here?
Willax
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Have you tried the limiter in S1?
Limiter gives you absolute level control via brickwall peak limiting. In addition to standard Threshold, Ceiling, and Release controls, Limiter also offers soft clipping, ITU/EBU True Peak limiting, and a choice of K-System or peak/rms metering. Limiter is perfect for preventing clipping on submixes or the master output and for maximizing gain on highly dynamic signals with large crest factors (peak-to-RMS ratios). Features Brickwall peak limiting K-System or peak/rms metering ITU/EBU True Peak limiting Soft clipping Level and gain-reduction metering
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You may have your meters set to a K value rather than Peak maybe?
If you are using the Studio One limiter set it to Peak and then raise your Input and Thresh settings to make it louder. hth. |
Thanks for the tips. I do have a limiter, but it looks like according to your suggestions, I may not have it setup correctly. I also have not used a commercial track for reference. Will probably do that in tomorrow's session.
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Getting the average level (rms) up high to commercial standards is not easy and not in one step either. Comparing to a commercial mix can be dangerous too because you may be comparing to a really slammed horribly too loud commercial mix. The trend is already moving away from that these days too. Only silly people master so loud!
There are various places that you need to add rms volume to your mix. It is not in any one stage but a combination of all of them. I have always thought that mixing and mastering are two very different processes and limiting usually forms part of the mastering process. You should also leave a week between these two stages as well so you can master with fresh ears. There should be no reason to use a limiter when printing a mix. A mix is usually being printed at a much lower rms levels than in the final mastering phases so it is basically not necessary. With good gain staging and use of the K system it is possible to print a mix at either K -14 or K-20 without any clip lights coming on anywhere. The only thing that you can mix into sometimes is some light compression on the masterbuss. For some genres it works well later in mastering too. But this compressor is not raising rms levels, it is just acting as some slight conditioning on your premastered mix that is all. In mastering you raise your rms level in these various areas: 1 Putting your mix into an editor, limiting the peaks of all transients to say -3 dB and add 2 dB of rms level to the whole track 2 The EQ can often add some extra gain without issues. 3 The mastering compressor while it may only be dropping the GR by 2 or 3 dB you can add this back in the form of makeup gain. And that will only get it back to where it was. You can add another 1 or 2 dB at the mastering compressor. 4 Final limiting in mastering should only be adding 3 to 4 dB or rms level overall. Small amounts of gain from each stage will result in quite a dramatic lift in mastered rms levels. But we don't want to go too high now due to Loudness Wars concepts are pushing mastered levels back down a little. (Great!) So it is not hard to change a K-20 or K-14 track up to -10 rms levels or even slightly higher. Treat mastering as a separate event either by yourself or a mastering engineer. Mixing is not the time to make mastering decisions. Your ears are already shot from mixing, making good mastering choices is very difficult under these conditions.
Last edited by Jemusic on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That's all very good information Jeff and I agree. I think the derogatory comment was a bit harsh though.
But, I highly doubt that the OP want's to remix his entire album at the burning stage and there's nothing wrong with using a Limiter to bring your volume up to near 0dB as long as it's not overly compressed. You can do it without squashing the living daylights out of it. @Willax: Here's a quick rundown, and anyone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Limitings purpose is to get your final volume level to a certain perceived loudness, which is not set in stone by anyone including the developer of the K System, without going over the digital medium limit of 0dB. The K System is one guy's opinion. A well respected guy, but his word is not Gospel. If you use the Studio One Limiter, there are presets in it that set it up for you automatically to -1dB, and lower. It's a fail-safe for several reasons, one being that all digital to analog converters are not the same during playback and if you limit your levels to 0dB you do risk going over 0dB and that will cause an audible pop/click. Especially if you make an MP3 out of a track that has been mastered to 0dB. If you use the -1dB preset on the Studio One limiter there are two controls that will increase the volume. Input and Thresh (short for threshold). Input does just that, it raises the input signal, but Thresh compresses the sound before your reach the -1dB mark. You want to bring your Input signal up loud enough so you see no more than a consistent -5dB reduction or less. Typically if you have more reduction than that it will give you a pumping sound, but again, none of this is set in stone. It greatly depends on the material. If your songs are still too low, raise the Thresh. You'll have to balance between Input and Thresh. If your recordings sound overly compressed after doing this then unfortunately you will have to remix all your songs. All those little spikes you see in the waveforms cause your Limiter and Compressors to react and if there are a lot of them it will cause a pumping and an overly compressed sound, some call it a 'squashed' sound. But, all the information Jeff gave is 100% accurate. It actually saves you time to take the time to get the levels under control when you are mixing. On your next project try to keep what Jeff said in mind and when you get to the mastering stage your levels should be very near optimum and it will all come together much easier. But it takes a lot of practice. Shane |
I remember, back in the day (yeah, I'm an old fart ) recording all kinds of mixed tracks from my albums to cassette tape and never having the issue of apparent levels of tracks being all over the place... and nobody was squashing or heavily limiting anything to make that happen.
Not sure why that had to change. Music actually doesn't sound better now, just louder. |
Go back and listen to the original release of the Joshua Tree, and then something from maybe 2007 or later. That will give you an idea of how the loudness wars have affected things.
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Couple of things I'd like to add: Input raises the signal level going into the Limiter plugin. It's a fine distinction, but important because it reflects on the next point.
Thresh would be short for Threshold - that's at what level the limiting starts to kick in. Depending on how low you set it, that governs how much you are flattening things from above. An absolute peak limiter (i.e. a "broadcast" limiter) sets a hard ceiling. Most other limiters (and compressors, because limiters are just severe compressors) "ramp down" the level starting at a certain point. On a scale from 1 to 10, for (a very rough & simple) example: your absolute limit is 9, i.e. none shall pass above 9, it is the top of the ramp. Threshold says: do we start turning down the volume when the music reaches 5, or 7, or 8?. That setting tells where the bottom of the ramp is, and in turn determines how steep that ramp is. In practice, it's better to do a series of gentle compression stages, which shapes the dynamic range more smoothly, than simply run everything through a hard limiting stage at the end. By taming the hard peaks more gradually, the comp/limiters that come later will behave more smoothly (and probably clamp down a bit less!) Incidentally, the guy who came up with the K system is Bob Katz. It may be "one man's opinion", but that man is extremely knowledgeable on the subject, and has the experience to back it up. My doctor also gives his opinion on my health, but I'd take it over someone off the street, ya know? If you want to get REALLY deep on the subject of how & why all this stuff works, I highly recommend his book, "Mastering Audio". http://www.digido.com/products/masterin ... -book.html |
matthewgorman wroteGo back and listen to the original release of the Joshua Tree, and then something from maybe 2007 or later. That will give you an idea of how the loudness wars have affected things. Try about mid 1995 or later. The "wars" have been raging for a long time. It's completely ruined most popular music for me past about late 1994. PS: The original 1987 pressing of Joshua Tree still is absolutely brilliant to these ears. VP
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The original 1987 pressing of Joshua Tree still is absolutely brilliant to these ears. Got my braces off the day it was released in the morning, went and bought the cassette, and cut the rest of the school day driving around listening to it. |
Sorry Bub did not mean to be so harsh but I just hate a lot of modern day mastering now, it is just horrible. The CD even at 16 bit has a full 96 or even 90 dB of dynamic range yet mastering engineers are only determined to use about 5 or 6 dB of it!
K System is an excellent concept and goes a long way towards a great dynamic sounding master. I have been getting into Loudness meters a lot lately and also Dynamic Range meters too (DR) This article in Sound on Sound is just excellent on the subject: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/a ... ss-war.htm Also watch any videos by Ian Shepherd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng_gOHRl-r0 The SOS article is a must read if you are interested in mastering very well. There is this sweet spot where you still have plenty of dynamic range, the mix is still punchy and kicks nicely and yet it is quite loud as well. I start by using the K system right through production. That sets everything up for a great final master. I am using three meters now. The VU meters during the production first. Then I use the Loudness meter to get an overall reading. I also put a DR meter over the premastered mix to get an idea of the dynamic range of the master. I also put a DR meter on the output of the mastering. As you start increasing your rms levels and lowering the dynamic range the Loudness meter will start to show this and also the DR meter on the output of your mastering will also keep you honest too. You can get closer to that sweet spot where the volume is loudish but the DR is still healthy at values above 9 or so. Check out Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' It is perfect balance of volume and dynamics. (Average rms level is around -10)
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Lots of great input. My focus was not to get into the "loudness wars", which Craig Anderton elaborates on with his Mastering seminars. I only need to get a consistent output level across all tracks, and a reasonable Master burn that will not require a user to turn the volume way up to hear, but get blasted out when they eject the CD (for those that use CD's still). I've looked at the K system selections in Studio One, but since I don't really understand it, and it's probably over my head technically, I tend to rely on meters and ears. Gonna have to dive in a bit more to the suggestions and comments that have been posted. It really helps to have a great knowledgeable user base here, thanks.
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Willax wroteI've looked at the K system selections in Studio One, but since I don't really understand it, and it's probably over my head technically, I tend to rely on meters and ears. It's not really as complicated as it may appear on the surface. It's just a standard developed by a guy name Bob Katz. Hence the 'K'. It's just a reference point to help standardize dynamic range and loudness so all those "idiots" can get a grip on it more easily. LOL! You are supposed to calibrate your system with test files then your all set. K-14 is the range for most music. This Wikipedia page explains it in a few sentences plus a chart. Here's Bob's site. Shane |
Willax wroteLots of great input. My focus was not to get into the "loudness wars", which Craig Anderton elaborates on with his Mastering seminars. I only need to get a consistent output level across all tracks, and a reasonable Master burn that will not require a user to turn the volume way up to hear, but get blasted out when they eject the CD (for those that use CD's still). I've looked at the K system selections in Studio One, but since I don't really understand it, and it's probably over my head technically, I tend to rely on meters and ears. Gonna have to dive in a bit more to the suggestions and comments that have been posted. It really helps to have a great knowledgeable user base here, thanks. Back to your original point. Put the limiter on the post slot of the main out. Leave the plug open, and watch the gain reduction meter. Slowly bring the volume up until you just tickle a bit of activity in the meter. Can be done this way from the song page for a quick mixdown, or in the project page. Once you can get a handle on what that is doing and you get more comfortable, then you can branch out with the different methods contained here. At least in the meantime you can accomplish what you want while you learn. |
Jemusic wroteit is not hard to change a K-20 or K-14 track up to -10 rms levels or even slightly higher. K-20 / K-14 PEAK & -10 RMS (AVERAGE)...aren't those values dependent on genre? if i'm making Hip-Hop, should I peak my faders / channels at K-12 instead? and in Hip-Hop, should i aim for a higher RMS average value than -10? |
Jemusic wroteI am using three meters now. The VU meters during the production first. Klanghelm? Jemusic wroteThen I use the Loudness meter to get an overall reading. WLM Plus Loudness Meter? when you're measuring loudness, are you using RMS or a different standard? Jemusic wroteI also put a DR meter over the premastered mix to get an idea of the dynamic range of the master. I also put a DR meter on the output of the mastering. BX_meter? |
I don't have the knowledge of the previous posters in regard to compression-limiters and the like, but a trick I use to get my mixes out of SL1 "louder" is to use the freeware software Audacity. In Audacity, I use the effects>amplify and I first raise it to 0 dB (it will tell you your level) and then next I allow clipping and raise it 5 or 6 dB and listen to it back. It is rare I hear ever a pop or a click. I normally don't hear my mix getting squashed and it just sounds louder and then I export it out (.wav or .mp3). I don't know why the mix doesn't crack or pop when doing this, but it works for me. This allows my home mixes to be as loud as commercial mixes. Before I did this, my mix volume was low and one had to turn up the speakers more than usual to hear it. Noww they don't.
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java2go wroteI don't have the knowledge of the previous posters in regard to compression-limiters and the like, but a trick I use to get my mixes out of SL1 "louder" is to use the freeware software Audacity. In Audacity, I use the effects>amplify and I first raise it to 0 dB (it will tell you your level) and then next I allow clipping and raise it 5 or 6 dB and listen to it back. It is rare I hear ever a pop or a click. I normally don't hear my mix getting squashed and it just sounds louder and then I export it out (.wav or .mp3). I don't know why the mix doesn't crack or pop when doing this, but it works for me. This allows my home mixes to be as loud as commercial mixes. Before I did this, my mix volume was low and one had to turn up the speakers more than usual to hear it. Noww they don't. No tricks here. I mix everything into iZotope Insight using my standard -16 or -14 LKFS template. As soon as the mix is in that pocket - that's where it stays. All I care about is headroom and dynamics - not where my volume knob is or how my mix compares to the latest "loudness war induced" commercial tragedy. VP
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I pretty much follow Jmusic's outline to the note. The only items I can add outside of calibration requirements are (and because we are speaking on broad terms, without hearing the music) is simply, I've found backing off the lows with typically a high pass filter, or even bell shaped curve roll-off to minimize too low frequencies soaking up levels, often around 50 to 70 hz will kill a lot of your dynamic range. By reducing those very low frequencies off the bass, kick, or very deep low synth (all of these often adding the most RMS level comparatively) will free up a lot of additional levels and allowances for peaks. Don't worry, you wont kill the nice deep bass altogether, but simply better define it. But there's still more to consider. High and low passages of the music has to be weighed and ultimately where you want the music to captivate or hold the listeners interest. You could do everything right with calibration, but your overall levels may suffer from too high points where the music crescendos while other passages are too soft. To put it into perspective, sit back as Jemusic mentions by doing the final mix weeks later, so you're not too close to the music, and have a fresh set of ears. In those first few sessions, things are critical, not to just the individual songs but to all of the songs/tracks. Continuity, feel, highs/lows, hooks, excitement/dragging a little, everything. Take notes, because at that time, the impressions are usually better, and a little more like what the listener may take in. I bring this up because all the good rules of practice, other albums for inspiration and so forth won't mean boo, if the flavor of music does not fit what's in front of you now. Once the feel is there, then start to taper in the final mix levels, while not impeding on feel.
This doesn't mean to ignore good mix levels right from the beginning. Far from it. In fact following good metering practices will help roll up the project in the end and be easier and with good sonic rewards. Just sort of cradle the balance between logic, and a little screw the logic, in order to keep the feel! You'll also have, I believe more fun at it. Sometimes for the heck of it, experiment. I typically avoid compressors, unless a bass player or vocalist is a little all over the place. Some very subtle compression or limiting can definatly help when used properly (by that, I mean not hearing the characteristic, or breathing) During final mixdowns, some compressors can add some feel or color, or have been described to "glue" a mix. Weigh it all out. There's some good characteristics for and against comps and limiters. Usually, for me anyway, a lot of old fashioned gain riding works well, so near the end stages is where automation starts to play into things quite a bit. There's more, but this should help the level concerns while keeping a handle on feel.
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