klypeman wrote

SwitchBack wrote- Track loud
- Don't clip
- Once inside your DAW work from a consistent level (-18dBfs, K-level, ...)

Yeah !! This I get. K-14 and try to keep levels at around -13-14 dB on input if no hardcore. Then hard as no clippings I guess fs means fullscale, right ?

Yes, so on a meter with a scale to +10dB you would be at -8dB for -18dBfs.

I don't know if it was said before...
but did you all know that studio one channels can not clip? It is impossible.
(that is why we developed the mix engine FX. Console Shaper and the upcomming CTC-1. There you can clip channels)

so it really doesnt matter, where you mixer levels are. It is just optical.

Just saying.
Ari

Anyone see Frank?

AriAhrendt wroteI don't know if it was said before...
but did you all know that studio one channels can not clip? It is impossible.
(that is why we developed the mix engine FX. Console Shaper and the upcomming CTC-1. There you can clip channels)

so it really doesnt matter, where you mixer levels are. It is just optical.

Just saying.
Ari

Yes, of course, but some (third party) plug-ins seem to be level sensitive

Also some "first party" plugins.
That happens pre fader of course.

I guess it might be good to define what any tracking level might be. And what loud means. I like to work at 3 ref levels. -20, -14 and -12. I like K-14 a lot of the time. It seems to represent a fairly loud level but still have decent transients. My Yamaha digital mixer is also calibrated for 0 dB = K-14 too which makes all its metering rather agreeable with what I see outside the mixer on the VU’s

K-12 for me is loud and it is these levels that you can clip on the input stages (eg A toD conversion I mean.) With dynamic performances that is. -12 for tracking is good when you know you want a loud master at the end.

I really like K-14 as there is less distance to go in mastering from a K-14 premaster to say -8 or so which is loud. But if we are going to relax our mastering levels now due to sensible practices then that in a way translates back into tracking rms levels which might be back to our -18 or -20 ref levels.

Yeah I get some like the faders all at unity and mix the signal levels from further back. But I find the faders don’t tell you much about the mix. When the tracking levels are all constant rms level then the faders vary a bit more and tend to show the mix better for me. I guess this flows on to from the analog tape era as well. Where the mix showed in the faders more.

Even though internal clipping is safe you can still set up good gain structures throughout any DAW. Some plug-ins are very level sensitive for sure. Reverberate is a bit like that. It does not take much to over drive some processes and for the worse sometimes.

Monitoring rms levels going in and out of plug-ins/chains will keep check on this sort of thing happening. When you carve a lot of EQ out say in a sound you may need makeup gain just to get things back to your chosen ref level. Some processes can add gain for some reason too.

The Presonus VU meter is fine with all that which is what it is meant to do. I would love the K System ref levels to be added in though to the Presonus VU meter. Any chance of that? I see -12 is in there now which is great but -14 and -20 would be really excellent.

I also find the Level Meter in Studio One in K mode to be very accurate compared to the VU, level wise that is. I do find ballistics rather interesting and what you can see in the movement, but that is a bit esoteric I suppose too and another topic.

I heard the wish for the 2 other scale modes. I will kick that into the right direction.

But to your other sentence: You can not compare any peak/RMS meter (or the Level Meter) or something else to an VU-Meter. That is soooo different from ... from everything. completely different code based on different measure techniques.

matthewgorman wroteAnyone see Frank?

I'm here just soaking up all of this great information

Yup, adding K Metering option to the stock VU would be fantastic. I mix at K 20 and Master at K 14, although I just added the Insight metering system to my work flow and am planning on trying out Ian Shepherd's -10 LUFS.

Wow, as if my head wasn't spinning enough.

If you wanna mix with K-Metering just switch your Master Meter to K-12/14/20.
Right click on the metering and choose your option.

Oh, now I see, Ari. If your guys modelled Presonus' own VU meter, I guess that explains it. I'm not gonna argue. That small expanded view of the insert inside the mixer is something I really like about that VU.

Speaking of the expanded view, would it be possible to customize which parameters of the insert should be visible in the expanded view? F.i. would it be possible to insert an instance of Mixtool and just have f.i. gain level visible in the mixer and not phase, L/R swap etc.? That would have been very helpful for those who do not need all parameters available and visible at all times.



To contribute with something on topic, here's what I do (quite elaborate, but it works for me):

When recording I try to have sound sources with predominantly sustained notes (piano etc.) hover around a level of -18 dBFS (RMS). Percussive and transient heavy sound sources (drums etc.) I set to -6 dBFS (peak). If I'm not sure which one to use, RMS or peak, I use the meter that matches its target level first when starting low and turning it up.

When using virtual instruments (and loops) I insert a gain tool in the first insert slot for each channel in the mixer (I usually do this for the recorded audio tracks' channels as well, just for continuity and any fine adjustments), and I adjust levels according to the same criteria as my recorded audio.

Mixing of levels happens pretty much as I go. When mixing I do a rough mix right away using the channel faders and I just make sure that the level balace is right. I use busses (combined folder tracks and busses) for all tracks and I make sure that the busses too are hit with the appropriate level. If the level balance of tracks going into the bus is right but the combined level is wrong, I use a VCA fader to adjust all the individual channels (going into this particular bus) simultaneously. Still -18 dBFS RMS or -6 dBFS peak, accordingly.

For every insert I choose to engage, I use its makeup gain, output trim or similar to make sure that the level that goes out of the plugin is the same that came in (RMS or peak where applicable).

This workflow applies to all busses, parallel busses, FX returns and the master bus.

Simple once you wrap your head around it.


Pros and cons:

Every plugin is hit with an appropriate level (many are calibrated to -18 dBFS (RMS).

Bypassing a plugin lets me hear the sound with the same level but without processing. I can therefore be sure that I hear the results of the processing and not just a change of level.

The positioning of the faders indicate the actual level of its sounds relative to the others. This can be quite helpful for identifying elements in the mixer.

You can make presets of f.i. your compressor settings and use them later with a more predictable result.

Can't think of any drawbacks when it comes to using this technique, except that it requires a little bit more discipline than just dragging and dropping until it sounds good. If it sounds good, it is good, so if you're happy with your current results, don't worry about it and don't change a winning team. This is just how I do it.


Two more thoughts:

Event Gain can be used instead of a trim tool insert. However, I like to reserve Event Gain for individual adjustments of notes or sections that are too loud or too quiet. It is also handy for a simple sort of super-easy pre-insert automation if I want sections of a track to hit the processing chain softer og harder.

If the fader resolution becomes a problem for the channels of a particular folder/bus, I use a trim knob insert as the first insert of the corresponding bus and use this trim and a VCA fader to adjust the faders of all the individual channels in question. Usually this means that I'll trim down the bus and raise all the individual channel fader values with their VCA.

AriAhrendt wroteIf you wanna mix with K-Metering just switch your Master Meter to K-12/14/20.
Right click on the metering and choose your option.

Thank you sir,

Yup, I already utilize that option. I love how S3 is so well integrated with the K system in both the song & project page.

Well heck there are too many things I love about S3 to choose a favorite.

So, I decided to check my VU meters. I created a new song in S1_v2, downloaded a sine wave @1000Hz, -18 dbfs. On the channel and the Main Master channel I placed the VU meters. I notice that when I play back the signal, the VU meter shows 0 VU (as expected) on the channel. But on the Main Master channel its off by -3 VU. This is the same with PSP and SPAN.

The image on the left is the channel and on the right is the Main Master channel.

Just trying to understand why there is a difference ?

carolinem1 wroteSo, I decided to check my VU meters. I created a new song in S1_v2, downloaded a sine wave @1000Hz, -18 dbfs. On the channel and the Main Master channel I placed the VU meters. I notice that when I play back the signal, the VU meter shows 0 VU (as expected) on the channel. But on the Main Master channel its off by -3 VU. This is the same with PSP and SPAN.

The image on the left is the channel and on the right is the Main Master channel.

Just trying to understand why there is a difference ?

This is why I stopped using it on the 2 buss... I couldn't figure out why there was a difference... But, Presonus was nice enough to have their own VU plugs and -- like Ari said -- impossible to clip and the VUs are just visual cues for our lizard brains used to looking instead of listening

The stereo master should read the same as an individual track.

Is the test signal mono by the way. You may have the pan law set for -3dB centre. Pan the mono track hard L and then the master meter might go back up to 0 dB VU. Stereo test signals eliminate this issue.

One way to check is to insert the audio oscillator onto a track. Set it for a sine wave at 1 Khz and its level to -18. Turn it ON. Now you should see the same signal on the track and the main buss.

Is the main fader down to -3dB for some reason or is there something on the stero buss that could be dropping it down by 3dB.

My guess is the mono test signal is -3dB centre which is the default Studio One pan law.

You can and should be monitoring on a VU meter your main mix. It keeps you honest and ensures that at the end of the day when everything is in your mix the level there on the master is just right and at the ref level.

Jemusic wroteThe stereo master should read the same as an individual track.

One way to check is to insert the audio oscillator onto a track. Set it for a sine wave at 1 Khz and its level to -18. Turn it ON. Now you should see the same signal on the track and the main buss.

My guess is the mono test signal is -3dB centre which is the default Studio One pan law.

.

Many thanks for your help. I created a new track in stereo, dropped the Tone Generation on it. Placed the VU meter on the track as well. When this track played, both the channel VU and the Mix Master VU show 0 UV.

I'm guessing that signal that I had from the internet was a mono track.

frank.crow wrote

AriAhrendt wroteIf you wanna mix with K-Metering just switch your Master Meter to K-12/14/20.
Right click on the metering and choose your option.

Thank you sir,

Yup, I already utilize that option. I love how S3 is so well integrated with the K system in both the song & project page.

Well heck there are too many things I love about S3 to choose a favorite.

Hi

Just have a question re your post. You say the S3 K system is available in song and project pages but I thought it was not possible to use the K system when tracking and mixing. Or have I misunderstood your post?
Mick