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What I'm finding is that both Bounce to New Track and Transform to Rendered Audio work on individual clips instead of on the track, so if you have time-based effects as Inserts such as reverb or delay, all the tails get cut off at the end of each clip boundary.

I don't understand how this could ever be the desired behavior, given how it produces such different output to the unbounced version.

Am I the only person to have noticed this? Do I have to go through the Export Stems dialog to get the expected functionality?

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by wolfgerb on Mon Feb 26, 2024 4:49 am
Activate "Play Overlaps" for the new track. In addition disable "No overlap when editing events", so when you move one of the overlapping events it doesn´t cutoff the others.
Bildschirmfoto 2024-02-26 um 11.43.55.png


EDIT: You could also create a macro, where you first merge all events on a track and then bounce/transform to audio.

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by bensizer on Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:28 am
Okay, checking "Play Overlaps" 'fixes' it, but it's still clearly wrong to have a situation where just rendering down a track significantly changes how it sounds.The inserts are part of the track, not part of the clips. I certainly don't want to enable the "No Overlap" options because the track is full of crossfades.

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by Vocalpoint on Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:37 am
bensizer wroteWhat I'm finding is that both Bounce to New Track and Transform to Rendered Audio work on individual clips instead of on the track, so if you have time-based effects as Inserts such as reverb or delay, all the tails get cut off at the end of each clip boundary.


Well - the Transform to Rendered Audio - is designed for the "track" level - but I would ask - what is the need for a series of "un-merged" individual events?

When I use Transform to Rendered audio - regardless of how much hacking and slashing I have done to the MIDI - it is all merged to a single unified track before transform.

I guess I am not understanding what you have done (on not done) to a typical track you are trying to transform but it sounds like it is not a complete track to begin with.

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by bensizer on Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:42 pm
Vocalpoint wroteWell - the Transform to Rendered Audio - is designed for the "track" level - but I would ask - what is the need for a series of "un-merged" individual events?


That's just how the song is. It would be strange to assume that every track in every song is expected to be one continuous clip. That's just not how most people work. Clips get duplicated, patterns get repeated, recordings get punched in and out, some instruments don't feature through the whole song.

Here's the video by Joe Gilder explaining what he does when he's finished with a song file - https://youtu.be/pJcM_DIi8Lg?si=lYa4vKf69N3RLLdr - and you can see that there are gaps and cuts all over the song.

The fact that this isn't handled properly when trying to render down a track is crazy to me.

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by Vocalpoint on Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:36 pm
bensizer wrote That's just how the song is. It would be strange to assume that every track in every song is expected to be one continuous clip. That's just not how most people work. Clips get duplicated, patterns get repeated, recordings get punched in and out, some instruments don't feature through the whole song.


Who says Joe used any "Transform to Rendered Audio" in that video? Or are you assuming that he did?

And yes it would be strange to require every track to be bounced to audio - no one is saying you need to bounce every track to audio.

DO what you need to do - just leave your track as a series of clips if it works for you.

Maybe best to just not bother with Bounce to Track or Transform to Rendered Audio and just carry on?

VP

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by Lokeyfly on Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:49 am
True. I also don't understand why if something doesn't work because of what someone expects, and hasn't uncovered other means to accomplishing something that indeed works, that initial something is deemed "broken" [per subject title].

bensizer wrote.......if you have time-based effects as Inserts such as reverb or delay, all the tails get cut off at the end of each clip boundary.
If you're determined to bounce which as you now know, yields different results of having effects printed as well, why don't you extend the trailing edge of the event? (Btw, Studio One refers to these as events, not clips which are audio clips in the pool). By extending the end of the event, you could capture the effects trail if it has one. Or for that matter the instruments release envelope trail.

Bouncing is not always the desired process. Rendering can be, but is more useful for full track printing at those event locations. There, you can adjust the tail length to your needs. Internal track stemming, also being an option, if you perhaps wish to preserve effects on their own track, to merge later on. Stemming is indeed a more full track way of printing track(s), although you have the option to designate start and stop locations by loop or start & end markers. There is nothing broken.

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by bensizer on Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:17 am
Vocalpoint wroteWho says Joe used any "Transform to Rendered Audio" in that video? Or are you assuming that he did?


Come on, don't be a dick.

Transform-Screenshot 2024-03-24 111420.png


Maybe best to just not bother with Bounce to Track or Transform to Rendered Audio and just carry on?


...what kind of suggestion is that?

I already explained why it would be useful if these features did what they are supposed to do, i.e. what they do in other DAWs.

You're arguing for the sake of it. Give it a rest.
Last edited by bensizer on Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by bensizer on Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:25 am
Lokeyfly wroteTrue. I also don't understand why if something doesn't work because of what someone expects, and hasn't uncovered other means to accomplishing something that indeed works, that initial something is deemed "broken" [per subject title].


It's broken because it doesn't do what a feature like this is supposed to do.

If you're determined to bounce which as you now know, yields different results of having effects printed as well, why don't you extend the trailing edge of the event?


Because the operation is supposed to work on tracks, not events. If I have to manually edit every event then it's a time-consuming process that we would normally expect to be a single click.

Bouncing is not always the desired process. Rendering can be, but is more useful for full track printing at those event locations. There, you can adjust the tail length to your needs. Internal track stemming, also being an option, if you perhaps wish to preserve effects on their own track, to merge later on. Stemming is indeed a more full track way of printing track(s), although you have the option to designate start and stop locations by loop or start & end markers.


Or, instead of expecting us to choose between numerous complex features that are each complex to use, they could just fix this one so that it does what it says and matches the freeze/transform functionality in other DAWS instead of the poor approximation it currently does.

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by Lokeyfly on Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:16 am
I'm a little busy on the music front, but unfortunately, I have to make time for this.....
bensizer wrote: "instead of expecting us to choose between numerous complex features that are each complex to use, they could just fix this one so that it does what it says and matches the freeze/transform functionality in other DAWS instead of the poor approximation it currently does.".

What poor approximation are you talking about? Please support your points. What are you referring to by stating "approximate"? What does that mean? That there are numerous complex features too difficult?

I understand from your original post, you want to bounce several events, and want to maintain the events, now as audio, with no effects cut off. Again, simply render the track (not bounce events). In the case of rendereing, you'll have the dialogue box come up with very useful alternatives. That includes extending out the event length to your needs, as well as weather you want effects to be printed, or not. It's really that simple. Users have different needs. The best DAW's facilitate various needs. Studio One is no different.


From your original post
bensizer wrote: "Am I the only person to have noticed this? Do I have to go through the Export Stems dialog to get the expected functionality?"

No, but you're the first to blast insults about it. Remember, the written word is filled with mirrors.

bensizer wrote: Here's the video by Joe Gilder explaining what he does when he's finished with a song file - https://youtu.be/pJcM_DIi8Lg?si=lYa4vKf69N3RLLdr - and you can see that there are gaps and cuts all over the song.

The fact that this isn't handled properly when trying to render down a track is crazy to me.


What's crazy is that twelve minute video you provided, has very little explanation of printing differences related towards your original post. There is little to nothing about the various ways of bouncing or rendering in that video. Yet you make these broad assumptions of how things should be done in Studio One compared to ehm..... "other DAW's". Not helpful.

That video has to do with cleaning up a song afterwards, and Joe clearly expresses this.. It is not standard practice to have to perform that on every song. Why is that twelve minutes of mostly different information compounded in your creating a necessary render (or bounce or stem) needs? Are we now talking about what to do with a song (Joe Gilder style), once it's finished? Your post was about bounce to new track & render are both broken.

From your original post, you got a solution from wolfgerb, yet you went on about how "rendering shouldn't change how the track sounds". Rendering won't change how the track sounds. If it does, you've made an incorrect selection to cause that to happen. Given the very few choices available to render, you shouldn't experience that; by learning those few options, than fold your arms and complain. I think in the twenty plus years Studio One has successfully grown, you'd acknowledge that. Unfortunately, You'd rather dis, or call something broken, instead of what you haven't figured out. Or, perhaps we're all wrong on our end. :roll:

*************
In conclusion, contrary to what you think, there's's nothing to fix, nor is anything "broken". Users are continuously getting along with how Studio One renders, bounces, and stems. For some reason, you're not. Also, name calling is quite out of line in ANY forum. Capische?

What I do hope is you absorb some of the good information by all here, learn and move on.

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by bensizer on Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:06 pm
Lokeyfly wroteI understand from your original post, you want to bounce several events, and want to maintain the events, now as audio, with no effects cut off. Again, simply render the track (not bounce events). In the case of rendereing, you'll have the dialogue box come up with very useful alternatives.


This is what 'Transform To Rendered Audio' on a track is supposed to do. It is supposed to be a one-click solution for this exact use case. That is why Joe uses it in the video. That is what I expect it to do.

That includes extending out the event length to your needs, as well as weather you want effects to be printed, or not.


Event lengths are not important. The feature should transform the track to audio. The track. To Audio.

No, but you're the first to blast insults about it. Remember, the written word is filled with mirrors.


If people are going to be so insulting as to suggest the video with the exact thing I am talking about does not include that exact thing, then they should expect pushback. Respect is earned. Disrespect gets answered. Mirrored, if you like.

What's crazy is that twelve minute video you provided, has very little explanation of printing differences related towards your original post. There is little to nothing about the various ways of bouncing or rendering in that video. Yet you make these broad assumptions of how things should be done in Studio One compared to ehm..... "other DAW's". Not helpful.


...what? The video is not about the various different forms of bouncing because they are not relevant. That is the whole point! The point is that I - and Joe Gilder, apparently - expect to be able to use that single Transform To Rendered Audio option and it should do the right thing, producing audio output that is exactly the same as the instrument output. And it doesn't.

Rendering won't change how the track sounds. If it does, you've made an incorrect selection to cause that to happen.


A feature that transforms a track to audio, but sounds completely different if you don't then go and find some another obscure checkbox somewhere, is an incredibly poor feature. I would say broken.

Also, name calling is quite out of line in ANY forum. Capische?


If someone is going to blatantly try and gaslight me in public then I'm going to call them out.

What I do hope is you absorb some of the good information by all here, learn and move on.


There has been precisely one piece of good information from wolfgerb and general rudeness and unnecessary antagonism from the rest. Thankfully this is not the first nor even the second time I've seen you be rude to people here when they suggest that Studio One is less than perfect so I expect it.

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:21 pm
From your original post to the last (literally), you've come in here to tell everyone how rendering should be done. Not ask in any way what might work, or even listen to a clear path to your issue . You're doing it now. ... and it's you Sir, who were rude. Don't cherry pick points made. Read yours. No one is in your words "gas lighting" anyone. It doesn't happen in this forum, yet you seem to want to combat responses. A moderator can easily be notified.

This is how Studio One renders, bounces, and stems. The tools are already in place.

My last suggestion to you (since you never answered one of my questions) is Write a feature request, or keep on reiterating how it should be. Everyone's gone home. They've tried and they were polite. Nothing is "broken".

Please make your points in an FR. That will offer a chance for others to weigh further on your points/critique.

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:27 pm
bensizer responding to Wolfgerb wroteOkay, checking "Play Overlaps" 'fixes' it, but it's still clearly wrong to have a situation where just rendering down a track significantly changes how it sounds.The inserts are part of the track, not part of the clips. I certainly don't want to enable the "No Overlap" options because the track is full of crossfades.

I think there is one overlooked possibility here (largely on my part as well, as I forgot to respond to this point early on) and that is if you have a lot of cross fades, it's understandable that you wouldn't want enable no overlap or even over use overlap. Both can be problematic.

Suggestion: Merge the sections [G] with the zero crossfades. Whenever zero crossfades are accomplished, it's always beneficial to merge the sections (Events) anyway. So now, a few numerous or back to back crossfades can be merged and act on being a solid longer continuous event. i.e. Seal the edited deal. This way when rendering bouncing, or stemming, it will have less dicing or potential gaps going on. A small gotcha to be aware of is for MIDI events, don't leave the grid snap on when merging or bouncing, as it can jump event boundaries, outward. Possibly creating undesired results.
This merge suggestion does not ever override the several available render options that most all users eventually need (and in different ways). It simply mends areas where it would be more of an advantage to have events not be so fragmented, before other rendering processes may happen. I can only imagine this is why you're hearing the rendered process sound different. I've not heard a render ever sound different. But this seems to be a clue why that was happening.

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by bensizer on Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:10 am
Lokeyfly wroteFrom your original post to the last (literally), you've come in here to tell everyone how rendering should be done.


While I appreciate you taking the time in your last post to detail a workaround, it's quite laborious for what is obviously intended to be a one-step command that is easily reversible. I've used a lot of DAWs, to a lesser or greater degree, and here's how this feature should works (and indeed, exactly how Joe Gilder was expecting it to be used in the video I linked):

Sonar: 'freeze' a track and it transforms exactly what you hear into audio, and you can revert it later.
Reaper: 'freeze' a track and it transforms exactly what you hear into audio, and you can revert it later.
Logic: 'freeze' a track and it transforms exactly what you hear into audio, and you can revert it later.
Ableton: 'freeze' a track and it transforms exactly what you hear into audio, and you can revert it later.
Studio One: 'transform to audio track' and it works on instrument tracks but it makes your existing audio tracks sound completely different by cutting off delay and reverb tails at the end of each event, unless you manually specify a tail length, which then gets an arbitrary fade applied to it anyway.

(And before someone tries to tell me "it's not designed for audio tracks, it's for instrument tracks", because I've seen that claim here before, open up the S1 help, select Editing > Track Transform in the contents, and you'll see 'Audio Track Transform' top and center even before the Instrument Track Transform information.)

Here's a repro for you:
1. create new song
2. drag in a short audio sample
3. ctrl-d to duplicate the event a few times
4. drag the events apart leaving a measure between them
5. add a reverb of your choice as an insert
6. play back the song, listening to the reverb tail in the gap between events
7. right-click the track, Transform to Rendered Audio, select Auto Tail
8. play back the song again, noticing that the reverb tail between events has entirely disappeared

Does it work if I group (G) the events beforehand? Yes.
Does it work if I bounce (Ctrl-B) the events beforehand? Yes.
Does it work if I use the feature in the way everyone would expect it to be used, and as Joe Gilder shows it to be used on the official Presonus YouTube channel? No.

Not ask in any way what might work


I'm not asking "how do I export a track". I know I can do that via Export Stems. I said that in my first post. That doesn't excuse the fact that this feature is broken.

No one is in your words "gas lighting" anyone.


Yes they are - in fact, two of you have now done so.

First, Vocalpoint saying "Who says Joe used any "Transform to Rendered Audio" in that video? Or are you assuming that he did?" The only way I can interpret this is that he is either accusing me of lying and bluffing that nobody will watch the video to check, or of having completely imagined that Joe did that. Both of which are easily proven false by watching the video.

Second, you pretending that the above didn't happen.

Write a feature request


This would be a bug report, not a feature request. Sadly my experience with Presonus technical support is that it takes just as much arguing as it does here to convince them that something is actually broken, until finally it's added to the backlog never to be addressed.

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by wolfgerb on Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:41 am
Hello everybody!
Workflow issues aside I did some experiments with the "Transform to Rendered Audio" feature and found some interesting behaviors.
Most of them are basically related to the "Autotail" Checkbox.
There is inconsistent behavior happening with some plugins wether using the VST3 or AU version and even with Presonus own plugins wether auto-tail is checked or not.
Following I demonstrate different scenarios:

1. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Fabfilter-Timeless3 AU version Delay-Plugin inserted
Autotail checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is rendered as expected:
01 Timeless AU VERSION Autotail On.png

02 Timeless AU VERSION Autotail On 2.png


2. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Fabfilter-Timeless3 AU version Delay-Plugin inserted
Autotail un-checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is rendered as expected:
03 Timeless Au Version Autotail off.png

04 Timeless Au Version Atutail off 2.png


3. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Fabfilter-Timeless3 VST version Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is NOT rendered as expected:
05 Timeless VST3 Autotail On.png

06 Timeless VST3 Autotail On 2.png


4. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Fabfilter-Timeless3 VST version Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail un-checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is rendered as expected:
07Timeless VST3 Autotail Off.png

08 Timeless VST3 Autotail Off 2.png


5. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Presonus Beatdelay Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is NOT rendered as expected:
09 Beatdelay Autotail On.png

10 Beatdelay Autotail On 2.png


2nd post following, can´t add more then 10 attachments
Last edited by wolfgerb on Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Vocalpoint on Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:49 am
RE: 5. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Presonus Beatdelay Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is NOT rendered as expected:

What exactly are you expecting?

VP

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by wolfgerb on Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:54 am
6. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Presonus Beatdelay Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail unchecked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is rendered as expected:
11 Beatdelay Autotail Off.png

12 Beatdelay Autotail Off 2.png


This is the weirdest one:

7. Scenario: Different Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Timeless3 AU Version Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is rendered as expected on two snippets but not on the middle one, worked flawless in 1. Scenario:
13 Timeless AU Autotail On.png

14 Timeless AU Autotail On 2.png


8. Scenario: Different Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Timeless3 AU Version Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail unchecked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is rendered as expected on all three snippets :
15 Timeless AU Autotail Off.png

16 Timeless AU Autotail Off 2.png


So there are definitely scenarios where "Transform to Rendered Audio" is not working as expected (I don´t dare to say it's a bug :D ). The misbehavior is for sure coupled to the Auto-Tail feature, Auto-Tail ON almost never works correctly except on 1.Secenario with Timeless3 AU Version.
But the same scenario doesn´t work on different snippets in 7.Scenario so I´m left little bit confused?
Last edited by wolfgerb on Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by wolfgerb on Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:57 am
Vocalpoint wroteRE: 5. Scenario: 2 Audiosnippets on an audiotrack, Presonus Beatdelay Delay-Plugin inserted Autotail checked, "Transform to Rendered Audio", Delay is NOT rendered as expected:

What exactly are you expecting?

VP


Hi Vocalpoint!
I´m expecting the same behavior as in 1. Scenario, where the delay is rendered into the file with Auto-Tail checked. What I expect from the Autotail-feauture is, that it automatically can calculate how long the tail has to be with a certain plugin and renders this tail into the new audiofile and it works in 1.Scenario. The discrepancy between 1.Scenario, 3.Scenario and 5. Scenario, which all have the same setting is not understandable.

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by Lokeyfly on Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:44 am
Nice effort wolfgerb. It does so appear in some circumstances, as in your example, the middle portion failed. That might have to be examined further based on the effects used, and their dsp settings.

For better or worse, this was my rational to the OP that merging events, in his case with however many zero crossfades (as the OP described), beforehand, could be beneficial to eliminating any misses, as you document quite nicely.

Really just a workflow that has been working for my, and clients needs.

So that's where I'll leave off, guys.

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by leosutherland on Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:20 am
Hi wolfgerb

It might be interesting if you can do as Lokeyfly suggests and merge those separate events into one (maybe in different combinations) and repeat all the tests - just to be sure it all works as suggested, just in case - I expect it will all work fine, but you never can tell with bees ;)

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