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Hi all,

I've just completed a mix in S1 4.5, and am trying to print stems to take into a new mix session and do some final cleanup.

I've grouped everything in the mix to a total of 9 stems (vox, synths, etc). I removed all plugins from my master channel, with the exception of Mix FX (CTC-1), and exported stems using the Export Stems feature. I am not changing bit depth (32bit-->32bit), or otherwise rendering files that should be different at all from the source mix.

However, when I import the exported stems to a fresh session and re-create my master processing, the mix is noticeably different. This is *not placebo* - I can both hear and see the difference in the mix using Metric AB looping over the same section of the track. The printed stems sum to be about 1.5dB quieter than the original mix session mixdown, and overall there just seems to be a loss of depth and width in the mix.

The only possible cause I can think of here is if Mix FX do not render when stems are exported, but I can't really find specifics on this anywhere in the manual or online. Is this a thing? What is the best workflow for exporting a series of stems so that they will sum exactly the same once re-imported to a new session? Thank you in advance.
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by robertgray3 on Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:35 pm
You using stems->channels or stems->tracks?

Two very different options

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by Lawrence on Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:28 am
I think you may be correct, that MixFX do not render in individual channel stems.

But you can easily test that by importing an audio file, routing it to a bus with MixFX on it and greatly exaggerate the MixFX processing on the Bus channel to make it easily audible, and print a stem of that bus channel and listen to it.
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by colls212 on Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:23 am
Yes, confirming that - Mix FX do not print when any kind of stem is rendered (Channels or Tracks). This even includes if the buss itself that you are printing a stem of has Mix FX active on it, not just the Master Mix FX failing to print.

Hopefully this is a bug and not the intended behavior. Otherwise I don't see how you can use Mix FX on a project you plan to stem out at some point, because you're mixing into a processor that won't be there when exported.
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by mikemanthei on Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:17 am
Thank you so much for testing this!

If you just solo up the tracks that you want and then create a mix down instead of stems, that should include the mix FX and be a work around until tech support resolve this

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by colls212 on Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:47 pm
Hey Mike,

So I tried that also - I solo'd each buss/stem in my mix and printed through Mixdown. What I found is that although this does print the MixFX on the master, the stemmed mix in a new session still will not null or anything even close. I think because MixFX is dynamic, and the crosstalk is actually working, you do not get the same result soloing parts and bouncing as you do just playing back the full mix. It's possible you'll get a null or close to it if you just test it with a track or two, but in a 50+ track mix, MixFX seems to just be too dynamic relative to the input to solo it and get the same result.

What I found was the stems I printed through Mixdown were, when reassembled in a new project, hitting the master too hard and still sounded significantly different than my previous session. The best way I could describe it is the individual stems seemed to have too much MixFX on them when printed individually and then reassembled later, like doing it this way essentially adds more MixFX to each stem than it would naturally receive hitting the master in the original mix session, as part of a full mix.

I am not saying I can't work with the stems I bounced out, it is just disconcerting. In pro audio we often obsess over the tiniest details in audio fidelity, summing engines, etc...this is substantial enough to hear without diving very deep into the technical side of things. To feel like you are sculpting a mix for days/weeks/months and then have a moving target as you bounce things out is not ideal IMO.
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by robertgray3 on Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:21 am
What a strange oversight. So MixFX in its current state is basically only useful if you are mixing a full song to a 2 track mix, and for any other workflows it doesn’t do much at all. I had only used CTC-1 in that situation but lately I’m stemming out my productions for another engineer to stem master so I guess I won’t even bother using CTC-1.

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by gaetzsch on Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:58 am
Hmm, any news about this problem? What does the support say to this?

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by robertgray3 on Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:18 am
Probably not considered a “problem”, I bet they just designed it that way. If it printed MixFX on the stems wouldn’t they technically not sound like the mixdown either?

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by DrummaMan on Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:24 pm
Greetings All,
I just found this thread.

Well - it's now 2022, and this issue still exists in SOP 5.3...

I'm hoping to bounce the stems out before upgrading to 5.5 (as of this post), but I do not think it's been addressed as yet, and do not wish to create more issues with the existing mixes/stems.

If Cakewalk could figure it out for Sonar/Sonar Platinum, surely the Presonus programmers can figure it out, yes?

I'm holding on to hope...

MG

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by shanabit on Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:14 pm
Turn off the Mix Effects in the main out
Problem solved.

Bleed and distortion are built into the Console Shaper effects

Do yall really expect it to null? Its designed this way

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by DrummaMan on Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:34 pm
Easy there shanabit - no snark required, just helpful answers, thank you.

I saved the 2-bus settings/plugins, but did not realize the "mix FX" were separate.

It'd be great if the MixFX were saved with the Master bus FX chain, as it'd be one less thing to have to remember come stem-bounce time...

Kindest regards.

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:15 am
DrummaMan wroteGreetings All,
I just found this thread.

Well - it's now 2022, and this issue still exists in SOP 5.3...

I'm hoping to bounce the stems out before upgrading to 5.5 (as of this post), but I do not think it's been addressed as yet, and do not wish to create more issues MG


Hi MG, For better or worse, Shanabits point is correct. Having FX on in the final mix will be different than the stems combined (even when the FX is stemmed and combined). I don't believe there's an issue to fix, as it's the nature of the beast. Stemming is a means for delivery. In the original post, the OP states he removed all FX except the CTC-1. Well, that's an effect. Anything inserted that has some distortion, are change will not null. Therefore there's a difference. Sometimes that difference can be large, be it volume, frequency, or distortion.

Curious, why stem in order to load 5.5, when you could do a routing backup in the Songs, Projects, and Presets? Or if need be, backup the drive. My hats off to you for being careful, but stemming is never a backup option, but a send out, or shared option.


Drummaman wrote: "If Cakewalk could figure it out for Sonar/Sonar Platinum, surely the Presonus programmers can figure it out, yes?

I'm holding on to hope..."


Easy there MG. ;)

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by jBranam on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:57 am
i may be wrong so correct me if i am

as i recall when you stem out you get only the audio (no effects) but bouncing includes everything down the line so if you want everything included out to the main in your stems then 'bounce to new tracks' to include everything then stem out the newly bounced (committed) audio

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by DrummaMan on Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:37 pm
Thanks to all - and shanabits - for the replies.

So, here is the scenario: I turned off the MixFX/Master Bus MixFX.
After bouncing the channel stems, I send them to a ProTools house.
They load the stems, but it is missing the MixFX, so re-assembling the stems does not sound like the final stereo mix.

Another issue I see is that even if I solo and bounce each and every track and/or bus manually, any side-chaining that was sourced from another track in the original stereo mix is now muted…

The mix session, from what I've seen in other posts/threads, needs altered with additional busses in order for this to work …better?

But will it provide all of the stems/sounds required to reassemble the final mix at another studio?

I'm starting to think “no”...

Therein lies the conundrum.

I will keep trying things in hope of getting the stems to reassemble “closer” to the final mix.

Thanks again to all,
MG

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:35 pm
Maybe this will answer a few questions.when stemming out in Studio One, you can stem any combination of:
Individual tracks,, channels, fx (they are separated as on their own send), busses, .master out, and whatever else such as LFO 's, etc. They are (or mostly are) pre fade. Tracks are dry, channels will contain inserts, but not sends. Sends stem on their own. You select any combination. Presto.

So your receiving end get those stems, you should make sure you provide a main out mix so they can gauge what the final Mix intent was. A dry main out doesn't hurt to provide as well. You should accompany the stems with a track sheet, or stem sheet describing all.

As to what to send, that is usually the request of the recipient, and actually you. Its always best to have individual tracks, but some songs that could be quite scattered and convoluted. If you have a good oossibly under 10 busses, where you needn't worry about two guitars, or a few sparse percussive hits, use busses. You'll almost always place your kick, snare, HH separate. Tom's can be called rack Tom's and usually (depending on complexity) be on their own bus. Obviously vocals separate, but you get the idea.

To answer Jay, correct. Bouncing includes the fx send that accompanies the event being bounced

So in retrospect, stating one stems and sends that to a production house, studio, whatever, is quite vague.chances are as stated above, you sent "both" a Master with effects included as well as any fx stem(s).

The recipient will work out the mix from there. There is no point t about actual exact comparisons, nulling or any microscopic surgery. They state what they need, and it's up to you to get it to them. Be consice with your stem list. It's your $@<+. ;)

If they didn't tell you what they want (doubtful), shame on them. If you didn't provide them with what they requested, shame on you, or you simply need to break it down better. Not ask why anything is different. Its going to be different.

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:11 pm
Quick question, DrummaMan,
You say "bouncing stems". They're effectively different things.
Why are you bouncing anything? Yes the other tracks will mute.

I'm expecting to read you stemmed from the export stems location. Not bouncing anything. See my previous response for that detail.

I'm also expecting to hear that you captured your final mix by performing an actual Mixdown (via the Mixdown menu). This will capture the mixdown exactly the same way, unless you chose some lossy, or inferior set of options.

Hope that helps. :|

Apologies if I missed something.

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by DrummaMan on Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:41 pm
Thanks for the added info lokeyfly.

Yes - "Export" stems.
Yes - a "final" mix was rendered out (Export Mixdown) to have a final version with which to compare.

And for the record - this is the first time I've dabbled with stem exporting in Studio One Pro.
I though it'd be a great way to archive a project, should the client want to revisit it down the road. (- sans any long forgotten plugins used on the project.. er...song...)
.
Up until now I've simply bounced out the final mix. ...er..."Exported Mixdown"...

After 30+ years of Cakewalk, it's taking me a bit to get Presonus' terminology down...
(I was with Cakewalk since the DOS days of MIDI only, and the company was named Forté with software called Cakewalk... Before another piece of software called ProTools by Digidesign made the scene!)

As for Studio One -
I think one of the issues I'm seeing is that none of the side-chains appear to be functioning in "Export Stems" as they were in "Export Mixdown"... when a track is solo'd for export, the side-chain source track is muted.

That happens in both "Export Stems", as well as Export Mixdown with each track solo'd on it's own.

I'll keep playing with it.

Thanks again for chiming in.

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:26 pm
Ah great, and thanks for the explanation. You also caught yourself, with bouncing the mixdown. LOL. My work is done. :)

Yes, as to stemming, and capturing the sidechaining. I could only add that stemming tracks are at leat typically dry, so they'll be no sidechaning in relation to thise tracks, so there will be no such dips, or characteristics that side chaining provides.
So let's chaulk that up as a difference to the main mix right there. You're on to something.

Still, you can stem FX sends as a stem as well. It's only my best guess admittedly that if you stemmed tracks with the fx sends at the same time, would any of the sidechaining impact either those FX, or some other instrument you were sidechaining? I.e would a bass guitar side chained to a kick, Impact the level being sidechained? I've never checked. I guess it doesn't as I think I recall this subject came up before. I'm a musician, songwriter, Engineer, so my time in the forum is limited.

So the point being "Exported stems sound different than final mixdown". I'd have to still say, yes and they will. Stemming really laying the tracks (unintended pun) of the recording and every stem will inevitably be re mixed.

So I think you may have been poking for that exact same behavior of a final mix. The mixdown suggestion I added and you had actually already performed was only my intent to guarantee an exact copy of the mixdown. I've done it hundreds of times, just to respectively state its pretty tried and true. But that's it. With stemming, all bets are off to a same as mixdown.

DrummaMan wrote: "I saved the 2-bus settings/plugins, but did not realize the "mix FX" were separate.

It'd be great if the MixFX were saved with the Master bus FX chain, as it'd be one less thing to have to remember come stem-bounce time..."

Add a Feature Request, if you haven't yet.

Effectively, you could bounce the track, and I do mean "bounce", which will include the fx on the track(s).
That should take all of 3 seconds. Call the track "xxxxx w FX"

Now when you stem, include that track.

I believe this was what JBranam was saying, so great point, Jay.

Done.
Or, Stem the FX.

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