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Hi all,

Wondering if anybody has experienced this. On 5.2, I have a track that has a significant track delay set (I'm using one of the Cinematic Studio Series instruments). What I've noticed is that now the total plugin delay has increased (the value on the bottom bar under the sample rate) which means playing an external instrument in real time has a huge latency. I don't experience this when playing another virtual instrument in the same project though. I'm wondering if there is a way around this by not using external instruments? Can I for example use a standard Instrument Track and an Audio track? I can't find a way to point the instrument track to an external MIDI source though (like a standard MIDI track would allow).

Cubase with the same setup does not induce this high latency on external instruments (but they have MIDI track types).

Thanks!

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by Tacman7 on Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:10 pm
5Lives wroteOn 5.2, I have a track that has a significant track delay set


So what's that 5ms or 25ms?

I remember something about things happening when you use high numbers in the delay parameter.

If it's very much can you just move the midi?


It doesn't sound like you have your midi setup correctly...

https://s1manual.presonus.com/Content/S ... evices.htm

You create a keyboard device and link it to midi ports on your computer. After that it will be available as an input for an instrument track (which is really a midi track).

Good to put your specs in your signature, click below in my signature.

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by 5Lives on Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:12 am
(Updated signature - thanks!)

Cinematic Studio Strings requires -330ms as an example. There used to be a problem with high negative delay settings causing weird audio glitches, but that was fixed in a recent update before 5.2.

My MIDI connections are setup correctly (the synth receives MIDI from S1 and sends back audio to the external instrument aux). The real issue is that Studio One does not properly compensate for that -330ms delay for external instruments. For example, if my external instrument track has MIDI data on it, that data will be out of time with the rest of the track. This does not happen for other instrument tracks in the project - those are compensated for properly. For external instrument tracks, I have to manually delay that track by -330ms as well in order for the MIDI to play in time (even with the click).

Furthermore, S1 is not compensating for real-time MIDI input from S1 into the external instrument which makes it impossible to play the instrument in time with the track.

The only workarounds I have found for this issue are:
- Monitor the external instrument through your audio interface instead of S1 when recording
- Set the external instrument's negative track delay to be the same as the project's total plugin latency once you've finished recording your part
- Alternatively, try to move the events from the delayed instrument track back by 330ms and leave the track delay at 0ms. This would be fine if there was an easy macro to move events by a specific millisecond amount.

Given Cubase, Logic, etc. compensate for external synths properly, I think Studio One should fix this. I'm not sure how they implemented negative track delay, but it seems to be impacting external instrument recording / monitoring for some reason. Perhaps they should simply be delaying the events on the track by the track delay amount in the background instead of delaying all of the plugins on the track as well, which contributes to high total plugin delay unnecessarily.

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by patricemazmanian on Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:55 am
Problem confirmed, cannot use external instruments.
Moreover, if the buffer size of the sound card is high (1024 for example), the inst. external is no longer sync!
Another new bug since the correction of the negative delay of the tracks!

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by Tacman7 on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:37 am
5Lives wrote I can't find a way to point the instrument track to an external MIDI source though (like a standard MIDI track would allow).


This was why I was wondering about your setup.


So this plugin you're using requires 330ms before it puts out sound?

Well you're not going to be tracking with that.


So what is the external synth you're using?

Do you have latency problems with a midi keyboard?

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by Bbd on Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:46 am
patricemazmanian wroteProblem confirmed, cannot use external instruments.
Moreover, if the buffer size of the sound card is high (1024 for example), the inst. external is no longer sync!
Another new bug since the correction of the negative delay of the tracks!


Please report this to Support.
Thanks.

Bbd

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by 5Lives on Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:24 am
Tacman7 wrote
5Lives wrote I can't find a way to point the instrument track to an external MIDI source though (like a standard MIDI track would allow).


This was why I was wondering about your setup.


So this plugin you're using requires 330ms before it puts out sound?

Well you're not going to be tracking with that.


So what is the external synth you're using?

Do you have latency problems with a midi keyboard?


Cinematic Studio Strings has advanced legato features and in order for those to play in time with the click, a large delay is necessary (up to -330ms). Many other orchestral sample libraries are similar to this (pretty much all of them in fact).

I'm using a Novation Peak and a MOOG Minitaur. The only latency and tracking problems are within Studio One. I can track in real time with the same exact track delay, same exact routing, same exact plugins, same keyboard, same synths with NO latency in Logic and Cubase.

I hope Presonus fixes this ASAP as most film / tv / media / game composers have external synths they need to use alongside sample libraries and if Studio One can't keep things in time, it'll be a deal breaker. 5.2 is really amazing otherwise.

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by Bbd on Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:33 am
Please report this to Support.

Bbd

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by 5Lives on Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:09 pm
Bbd wrotePlease report this to Support.


Done. Thanks.

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by kisnou on Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:16 am
5Lives wrote
Bbd wrotePlease report this to Support.


Done. Thanks.


I also use hardware synths and I have had many problems within S1, so I'm not surprised.
It would be nice if you could update this thread when you have some news. :thumbup:

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by 5Lives on Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:09 pm
kisnou wrote
5Lives wrote
Bbd wrotePlease report this to Support.


Done. Thanks.


I also use hardware synths and I have had many problems within S1, so I'm not surprised.
It would be nice if you could update this thread when you have some news. :thumbup:


Well....the response from support thus far is not very promising (in fact, it is almost inconceivable):

"> Please note UAD does not support Studio One : https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articl ... atibility-

Have you another interface that you could try ?"

So if you're experiencing this issue, please submit a support ticket yourself so they see it is not interface specific.

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by robertgray3 on Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm
5Lives wroteWell....the response from support thus far is not very promising (in fact, it is almost inconceivable):

"> Please note UAD does not support Studio One : https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articl ... atibility-

Have you another interface that you could try ?"

So if you're experiencing this issue, please submit a support ticket yourself so they see it is not interface specific.


I can confirm this. The way that external instruments deal with project latency is incredibly basic. You basically have to deal with them separately if you're utilizing negative track delay, Dropout Protection, or side chains.

Unfortunately, multiple people will have to report this or you may have to reopen the ticket to clarify. Their response is understandably frustrating, but try to take it in stride if possible- Support generally takes the path of least resistance (eg pointing out your interface's manufacturer doesn't officially test Studio One). I have a couple closed tickets where I was told that my computers were "likely corrupt", only to see that they fixed those specific bugs in later versions of the software. ;) I don't hold it against them- Studio One is one of many products and they're not always using the software the same way as the people opening tickets, so sometimes you have to be more persistent than feels appropriate.

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by 5Lives on Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:13 pm
robertgray3 wrote
5Lives wroteWell....the response from support thus far is not very promising (in fact, it is almost inconceivable):

"> Please note UAD does not support Studio One : https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articl ... atibility-

Have you another interface that you could try ?"

So if you're experiencing this issue, please submit a support ticket yourself so they see it is not interface specific.


I can confirm this. The way that external instruments deal with project latency is incredibly basic. You basically have to deal with them separately if you're utilizing negative track delay, Dropout Protection, or side chains.

Unfortunately, multiple people will have to report this or you may have to reopen the ticket to clarify. Their response is understandably frustrating, but try to take it in stride if possible- Support generally takes the path of least resistance (eg pointing out your interface's manufacturer doesn't officially test Studio One). I have a couple closed tickets where I was told that my computers were "likely corrupt", only to see that they fixed those specific bugs in later versions of the software. ;) I don't hold it against them- Studio One is one of many products and they're not always using the software the same way as the people opening tickets, so sometimes you have to be more persistent than feels appropriate.


Yeah I tried to remain as reasonable as possible in my response :) I did spend a lot of my free time collecting data and debugging this, so I'm hoping the support team doesn't just cast it aside. I'm very technically savvy - this is a bug with S1.

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by 5Lives on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:36 pm
I'm not sure how much more time I can spend with support on this. They don't seem to be willing to even test this on their side or ask QA. I told them users with Quantum and Studio interfaces experience the same issue and they said it doesn't matter, we have to continue debugging based on the Apollo as if it is an interface issue. I'm being asked to try the most basic things like playing a software instrument to see what delay is there...as if this is my first time using a DAW...

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by robertgray3 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:07 pm
5Lives wroteI'm not sure how much more time I can spend with support on this. They don't seem to be willing to even test this on their side or ask QA. I told them users with Quantum and Studio interfaces experience the same issue and they said it doesn't matter, we have to continue debugging based on the Apollo as if it is an interface issue.


That's a shame. By the way, this isn't really an issue with negative track delay. If you create high overall song latency with plugins on other tracks the same thing happens. It can easily be simulated with a bunch of Gates with Lookahead.

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by 5Lives on Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:45 pm
robertgray3 wrote
5Lives wroteI'm not sure how much more time I can spend with support on this. They don't seem to be willing to even test this on their side or ask QA. I told them users with Quantum and Studio interfaces experience the same issue and they said it doesn't matter, we have to continue debugging based on the Apollo as if it is an interface issue.


That's a shame. By the way, this isn't really an issue with negative track delay. If you create high overall song latency with plugins on other tracks the same thing happens. It can easily be simulated with a bunch of Gates with Lookahead.


Right - I'm assuming it is just based on the total plugin delay calculation (which the negative track delay seems to contribute to).

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by robertgray3 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:59 pm
5Lives wroteRight - I'm assuming it is just based on the total plugin delay calculation (which the negative track delay seems to contribute to).


If you want to reproduce it in a foolproof way just use your Built-In Input on your Mac. It doesn't even need an instrument to reproduce it.

Use the same input on an audio track and an Aux channel. Monitor the audio track while the volume of the aux channel is up (not high enough for feedback obviously) and if you just snap your fingers with a 500ms of latency in the song there will be a delay of a half a second on only one track. Anyone can hear that.

Also turn Dropout Protection to minimum- it doesn't affect the issue but Support might ask about it and that'll be another 2 replies needed.

To your point, I don't know if so much should be expected from the end user, but that's how I would report it.

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by 5Lives on Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:45 am
Well, support has said they are sending this to the development team, so here's hoping it will be addressed soon!

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