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Skaperverket wroteIs there really no one else that finds this topic interesting?


I have never ever listened to one of my mixes and said to myself "this sucks because the fades just don't sound right."

If that happened, I'd care.

IMO this is a classic case of "majoring in the minors."

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by dgkenney on Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:51 am
While this is worrisome, I went back and listened to my 128k MP3s through my Dollar $tore earbuds and can discern no difference.

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by sirmonkey on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:04 am
It seems like this is a tiny, miniscule "fault". Sorry, but it seems like so many other factors are so much more important.
It's like if I went to the weight room, and the weight on one side of the bar was 25 pounds, and the one on the other
side was 25.0086 pounds. They are uneven! I'm going to get lopsided! :D

I only mean to use 10% of my max snark here :twisted: Sorry if it sounds worse!

More seriously, can we please hear a fade where this makes an audible difference?

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by Nip on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:05 am
dgkenney wroteWhile this is worrisome, I went back and listened to my 128k MP3s through my Dollar $tore earbuds and can discern no difference.


:D

- Yeah, now I feel safe ;)

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by j0001s on Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm
One of the things that Studio One does that other systems do not do is apply dither by default. And that's a good thing, especially on fades, where they get grainy without dither.

GIven that dither is low level broadband noise, and given how his image looks, I suspect that might be what he's seeing.

I don't have time right now to do these tests, but if someone does, turn off "Use dithering for audio file playback and export" in the advanced audio settings. I bet things look "better" (but sound worse).
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by Nip on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:43 am
I did two bars as untouched, and two bars fading to infinite automation.
Peak level -6 dBFs, 1 KHz signal 48k.

Short version
StudioOne 4.1.2 - looks really bad, first odd harmonic at about -62 dB when automation start, otherwise no problem until then
Sonar Artist 2015 - no sign of any artifacts, -89 dB at first odd

First odd harmonic is the harsch harmonic you usually measure THD at.

Longer version
So I tested this back and forth with every option I can think of.
- offline and realtime
- dither or not checked and not checked
- mastering bypassed and not
- recording to another track doing manual fade from source track

So tested all variants of this.

I also tested 24-bit and 32-bot float rendering - no difference that I can see.
And again - unless volume automation started - I see nothing funny.
I see little difference when dither is on, in that colored bands look more smudged, kind of.

I fold completely on this - something is not right in StudioOne.
I'd even like to apologize to Skaperverket being so sceptical - and thank him for bringing this to our attention. :)

Please, everybody - take an hour and look into this.

Automation is used on many tracks, at least for me, and the thought it adds artifacts that floats around and obviously end up in final mix too - feels really unnecessary, to say the least.

And even doing manual fade when recording to second track, nothing by automation, it is related to algo doing volume it seems.

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by sirmonkey on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:50 am
Nip wroteI did two bars as untouched, and two bars fading to infinite automation.
Peak level -6 dBFs, 1 KHz signal 48k....
And even doing manual fade when recording to second track, nothing by automation, it is related to algo doing volume it seems.


But did you hear anything odd?

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by Nip on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:12 am
sirmonkey wrote
Nip wroteI did two bars as untouched, and two bars fading to infinite automation.
Peak level -6 dBFs, 1 KHz signal 48k....
And even doing manual fade when recording to second track, nothing by automation, it is related to algo doing volume it seems.


But did you hear anything odd?


Did not listen, just measure.

I doubt -60dB is in your face, but note that main signal show -10 dB, but could when total summed from all tracks doing automation something is there floating. Every adjustment of volume obviously do stuff that I think not is relevant for what volume should do.

Again note - that main original signal showing -6dB peaks show as far as I could zoom in and place cursor around -8->-10dB. Meaning artifacts are about 50 dB below that.

This mean distortion is about 1/316=0.003 meaning 0.3%, I think(somebody correct me if I am wrong).
I mean an hifi amp with 0.3% would sound horrible, why add in mix and what you listen too in the first place.
Formula 50/20 and 10^2.5=316. So artifacts are 1/316 below signal.

I have yet to look into entire fade out - how artifacts move with volume, which I found they do - just not sure how much.

It does not just happend out main outs - one time - it happend all through tracks during the full project.

If Sonar is close to -90dB doing the same thing, nothing visible or measure - feels like it should be.

I see no reason to be defensive - but everybody is free to kling to that "do you hear it". of course.
I think it should addressed - not swept under the carpet pretending it's not there.

While mixing - realtime playback - is one thing - but when rendering mixdown it would be good if other algos were used.

The more precise info we can provide to Presonus - the easier for them to look into it, I think.

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by Mirek Mach on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:51 am
Nip wrote...

I very appreciate your technical approach to it.

I did read whole thread, but I didn't notice if this occurs with faders only or it is with fade-in/fade-out on track events too?

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by Nip on Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:44 am
Mirek Mach wrote
Nip wrote...

I very appreciate your technical approach to it.

I did read whole thread, but I didn't notice if this occurs with faders only or it is with fade-in/fade-out on track events too?


I will test fore sure, seems like an interesting part to narrow down things.

I hope everybody explore ideas they get that might help to narrow down and provide something useful for Presonus if they want to attend to it.

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by Mirek Mach on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:16 am
Nip wroteI hope everybody explore ideas they get that might help to narrow down and provide something useful for Presonus if they want to attend to it.

I tried, but built-in tools in Studio One aren't sufficient for this kind of task and I don't have other ones.

BTW I still don't know if this issue is relevant to my (or everybody else) work (I did hear nothing strange with my automation yet), but I'm technical type of person and I'm very interested in what's under the hood of my DAW.

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by leosutherland on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:36 am
Nip wroteI see no reason to be defensive - but everybody is free to kling to that "do you hear it". of course.
I think it should addressed - not swept under the carpet pretending it's not there.

OK I accept that you are seeing artifacts during automation fade.

Not trying to be rude, frankly my initial reaction is "so what?" - I can't hear the artifacts assuming that they are there, and that is surely the only important measure?

Of course, I could be proved wrong next time I listen to a long fade, in which case I will revise my position and withdraw the above statement :lol:

One other point, given that as far as my experience is concerned, we should adhere to the old adage
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

By that I mean, based on my years a software engineer, if Presonus do address this and fix it, there is the chance that the sound quality (as seen) may improve, but the sound quality (as heard) may deteriorate.

Bit like everyone wanting analog synths, they often want the not-perfect output, rather than digital CD quality output

Anyhoo, just my opinion guys :thumbup:

...said Halo

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by Lokeyfly on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:48 am
Just keeping you guys in the know. Those concerned about DAW comparison audio fades may want to grab a hold of something.


Eastward Shift

As you may be aware, the earth's spin axis drifts slowly around the poles; the farthest away it has wobbled since observations began is 37 feet (12 meters). These wobbles don't affect our daily life, but they must be taken into account to get accurate results from GPS, Earth-observing satellites and observatories on the ground.

In a paper recently published in Science Advances, Surendra Adhikari and Erik Ivins of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California, researched how the movement of water around the world contributes to Earth's rotational wobbles. Earlier studies have pinpointed many connections between processes on Earth's surface or interior and our planet's wandering ways. For example, Earth's mantle is still readjusting to the loss of ice on North America after the last ice age, and the reduced mass beneath that continent pulls the spin axis toward Canada at the rate of a few inches each year. But some motions are still puzzling.

A Sharp Turn to the East

Around the year 2000, Earth's spin axis took an abrupt turn toward the east and is now drifting almost twice as fast as before, at a rate of almost 7 inches (17 centimeters) a year. "It's no longer moving toward Hudson Bay, but instead toward the British Isles," said Adhikari. "That's a massive swing." Adhikari and Ivins set out to explain this unexpected change.

Scientists have suggested that the loss of mass from Greenland and Antarctica's rapidly melting ice sheet could be causing the eastward shift of the spin axis.

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The concern is will I or others soon start to press the G key, when we meant to press the F key, or similar disturbance? Read the facts!
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by leosutherland on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:55 am
Quick, raise a FR to fix that! :D

...said Halo

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by Jemusic on Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:27 am
Don't measure, listen!

This could be one of those things that nobody can hear.

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



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by leosutherland on Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:42 am
Jemusic wroteDon't measure, listen!

This could be one of those things that nobody can hear.


Amen, brother! :+1

...said Halo

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by Nip on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:00 am
So people are thinking everything should be in your face - before you act, hmmmm

You think 64-bit audio engine compared to 32-bit is in your face?
You think import SRC quality is in your face?
You think bezier curves on automation is in your face compared to other shapes?
You think unless in your face on one track - automation can create as much distortion it wants?
You think a $3000 preamp is in your face compared to a $2000 one and worth the extra dope?
You think a $3000 Gibson is in your face in a mix compared to $2000 one and what you pick for a mix?
You think a $4000 Taylor is so much better than a $2000 one?

There a certainly a couple of yes-es from me, and no-es too, and the rest matters if on every track and it sums up.
It's called - attention to detail - and it's summing up in the larger picture - and suddenly small things is in your face

Demon producer Max Martin once said something to the meaning
- if you are prepared to spend a month mixing a song until it's right - result is probably going to be great

I hope to make a piece of music worth spending that much time on - but equally scared I will have to fight little things floating around in the mix because I chose inferior tools.

It happends I find I just touched automation a little bit in one end, so it made maybe 0.5dB ramp or something. I will make damned sure this does not happend in StudioOne. Most automation I've done has been rather fast and in between words of a vocalist and similar, she leaned toward mike a little more and needed a boost in reverb send to compensate that. But if it cannot be done in silent part, I will do it in another tool. Il will not make fades over audio in StudioOne. Short fade ins on clips does not matter, but longer ones.

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by j0001s on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:38 am
Nip wroteI did two bars as untouched, and two bars fading to infinite automation.
Peak level -6 dBFs, 1 KHz signal 48k....
And even doing manual fade when recording to second track, nothing by automation, it is related to algo doing volume it seems.


Did you disable the Studio One dither before you did the test? It is on by default, and it must be off for a legit comparison.
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by darrenporter1 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:04 am
Nip wroteSo people are thinking everything should be in your face - before you act, hmmmm

You think 64-bit audio engine compared to 32-bit is in your face?
You think import SRC quality is in your face?
You think bezier curves on automation is in your face compared to other shapes?
You think unless in your face on one track - automation can create as much distortion it wants?
You think a $3000 preamp is in your face compared to a $2000 one and worth the extra dope?
You think a $3000 Gibson is in your face in a mix compared to $2000 one and what you pick for a mix?
You think a $4000 Taylor is so much better than a $2000 one?



:roll:

Good grief... just go have fun making and listening to music.

You'll know you're an old rock-n-roller when the only spandex in your pants is in the elastic waistband. :D


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by Skaperverket on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:13 am
Nip wroteI did two bars as untouched, and two bars fading to infinite automation.
Peak level -6 dBFs, 1 KHz signal 48k.

Short version
StudioOne 4.1.2 - looks really bad, first odd harmonic at about -62 dB when automation start, otherwise no problem until then
Sonar Artist 2015 - no sign of any artifacts, -89 dB at first odd

First odd harmonic is the harsch harmonic you usually measure THD at.

Longer version
So I tested this back and forth with every option I can think of.
- offline and realtime
- dither or not checked and not checked
- mastering bypassed and not
- recording to another track doing manual fade from source track

So tested all variants of this.

I also tested 24-bit and 32-bot float rendering - no difference that I can see.
And again - unless volume automation started - I see nothing funny.
I see little difference when dither is on, in that colored bands look more smudged, kind of.

I fold completely on this - something is not right in StudioOne.
I'd even like to apologize to Skaperverket being so sceptical - and thank him for bringing this to our attention. :)

Please, everybody - take an hour and look into this.

Automation is used on many tracks, at least for me, and the thought it adds artifacts that floats around and obviously end up in final mix too - feels really unnecessary, to say the least.

And even doing manual fade when recording to second track, nothing by automation, it is related to algo doing volume it seems.


Thank you for testing this, Nip! And thanks for being so straight up about it. Your apology is accepted and appreciated, however not required. Scepticism is needed! But I'm glad that there are more of us here that share an attention to details on this matter, and I agree that it's comparable to 32 bit vs 64 bit engines, or 24 bit vs 32 bit fp files, oversampling or other stuff. Not likely to be crucial for representing most types of audio, but for some people and in certain cases these are examples of features that do matter in the end.

Distortion free automation should, in my opinion, be a priority in a professional DAW.

Personally, I use automation a lot, and doing so in layers, kind of like an manual dynamic processor, both for leveling, envelope shaping and de-essing. I don't want unintended distortion to add up due to this.

Sometimes it can be hard to hear these things specifically, and it's more like a hazy or undefined feeling than hearing specific frequencies. Like when comparing a plug-in to hardware. They sound the same (or so similar that it's hard to describe in technical terms), but still they feel different. Same as when mixing in a tiny bit of early reflections with a signal. A feeling. And some people might argue that a certain difference will not be heard in a full mix, but often I've found it to be the other way around: You can't hear it soloed, but the difference is obvious in the mix.

Also, don't forget that how processors react to a simple sine is not the same as how they might react to more complex signals.

I know I am repeating myself here, but I advocate for getting this automation distortion thing done right. I have understood that most of the people voicing their opinion in this thread might not vote for a feature request addressing this, and that is of course your right, so what I hope for is that the developers in Germany would read this or watch Admiral Bumblebee's video directly and that it doesn't have to go through the Answers page or the US customers service. Ardour is an open source DAW, and they seem to get it right, so the knowledge how to do it should be readily available.

Thanks again, Nip, for confirming and caring. Bell Laboratories would approve, I'm sure!
Last edited by Skaperverket on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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