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jpettit wroteQuick answer.
Upgrade to at least Editor.
Then you will have full control over the tempo map.
If you can not afford it you can still tempo map the old slow way.


i just edited the post so maybe it's more clear ;)

unfortunately i'm not sure paying more for the more advanced version is going to make the pretty bad tempo detect on just a small clip that is relatively spot on any better than the essentials version. if melodyne's intial tempo detect is way off it just means i have to do more work in melodyne vs doing it in S1 except that now i'm paying an extra $300 for the privilege of a more cumbersome workflow. i just realized i could have tried a trial version to confirm but i'm running out of time.

it sounds like you're pretty busy but i guess i really only want to know if my "child clip" method as described in the last post is a valid way to work with melodyne (doesn't present any problems) and perhaps increases the accuracy of the tempo detect vs having it work on an entire audio file regardless of the melodyne version. logically it seems that it should work best as i describe but it in fact makes things worse. knowing that answer would narrow down whether the technique is not good or my way of preparing the audio for melodyne detection is missing some key ingredient!

thx

Macbook Pro 2015, i7 2.9Ghz, 16G, 1T, studio one pro 2.6.5 evaluating 3.5, USB 3.0, thunderbolt 10G, Apogee Duet USB interface. EZDrummer / Superior Drummer
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by jpettit on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:24 pm
Don't know if but it sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I know working with others who have tried piece meal have found that the algorithm have anomalies when there is less data to analyze.

I can share my experiences of tempo mapping over a decade.

Manually mapping a tyipical 3-5 minute song can be done in about 20 minutes once you get the hang of it.

M4 tempo mapping is the best on the planet. You will find no better.

It can be very accurate right out of the box for many songs.

Other songs are work.

In some cases equal to doing it manually. Watch my videos for the best manual methods.

If you do this a lot then learn the techniques. Manually then try out Editor version and their method to see what it brings to the party. Watch my advance videos for ways to work out dozens of challenges.

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by presobr010 on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:38 am
jpettit wroteDon't know if but it sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I know working with others who have tried piece meal have found that the algorithm have anomalies when there is less data to analyze.

I can share my experiences of tempo mapping over a decade.

Manually mapping a tyipical 3-5 minute song can be done in about 20 minutes once you get the hang of it.

M4 tempo mapping is the best on the planet. You will find no better.

It can be very accurate right out of the box for many songs.

Other songs are work.

In some cases equal to doing it manually. Watch my videos for the best manual methods.

If you do this a lot then learn the techniques. Manually then try out Editor version and their method to see what it brings to the party. Watch my advance videos for ways to work out dozens of challenges.


thx for all the kind and patient help

in the end i wound up buying the m4 editor upgrade and rewatching your videos. i think i'm actually getting much closer to what i want using the melodyne method it just needs some cleanup. i've noticed that it's tempo mapping pretty accurately but often doubling the detected tempo which with m4 editor tempo edit i can fix pretty easily.

the only other thing it's doing sometimes is not judging the bar downbeat accurately which throws off the rest of the bars in the detected audio track. it appears i can use m4 editor tempo edit to adjust this per your videos i just need to go back for the details and hopefully do this in a way that all following bars "slip" forward or backward so i can adjust the downbeats with one downbeat to bar edit operation vs many?!

i think the only other thing that would help but not really explained clearly by melodyne documentation is this notion of lining the audio on the bar beat in the S1 arrangement before going into melodyne b/c it apparently effects the results.

- can this S1 bar alignment be on *any* bar measure whether 2, 3, 4... 20th bar, etc or does it have to be first or 2nd bar measure for whatever reason?

- once the start location / transient of the main waveform of the audio track is aligned to a bar per above, does it need to be trimmed if it is lead by silence or a pickup / intro or is melodyne smart enough to disregard the silence or pickup audio?

- in one video you bounce the audio before sending it to m4 for tempo detect? per above is this to "hide" the initial silence or pickup audio because m4 isn't smart enough to even if it's trimmed in S1 or to help m4 work better in some way vs just using the original audio event?

Macbook Pro 2015, i7 2.9Ghz, 16G, 1T, studio one pro 2.6.5 evaluating 3.5, USB 3.0, thunderbolt 10G, Apogee Duet USB interface. EZDrummer / Superior Drummer
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by mickedge on Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:07 am
presobr010 wrotehey thanks jpetit. there were too many nested quotes so i'm posting a separate quick reply to your last post

so here's the deal and maybe it will help some other melodyne Essentials users. i think i finally got this thing working but it's kind of quirky. maybe you have suggestions based upon what i say next.

in essentials, you have only have three icons : the wrench (assignment mode), one blob (clip mode) and two blobs (track mode).. fyi, i'm calling them blobs because i don't know what else to call them. if i click on either the clip or track mode icon, it will often (but not always, it's kind of buggy???) assign a tempo to what i'll call the "tempo dropdown" interface element b/c i don't know what else to call it. but that won't get assigned to the event tempo in the S1 inspector unless i drill down into the "tempo dropdown" interface element and select "Confirm.... as file tempo". sometimes this works and sometimes this doesnt as well. it's really buggy. but if and when it gets assigned, THEN i can drag the melodyne "line" in my audio event to the tempo track as you suggest and the tempo map from melodyne appears in the tempo track.

outside of the fact that some of what i describe above sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, the tempos it has found has been pretty good on one of my songs and mostly pretty horrible on the rest of them! some of the songs do have variable tempo and my guess is i'm not lining up the start and end of the clips by trimming them appropriately to be on beat boundaries. BUT, one of the files i sent though not played to a click was virtually dead on and melodyne was way off. the range was large and way off the basic tap tempo i calculated for tthe that particular song. it was as if it was basically doubling the actual temp (ie if the base tempo was around 75 the tempo map wound up being in a range of below that plus about double or 156 above that???)

a few questions if you have any thoughts?

a) there are only 3 algorithm options in the ESSENTIAL 4.1 version : universal, melodic and percussive. most of teh videos i've seen suggest polyphonic and the majority of the tracks i'm using as reference tracks are either stereo mixdowns or were a basic reference track (acoustic guitar plus vox recorded simultaneously) all without any drums (no percussive). so i would assume i should use polyphonic (which doesn't exist in my version) or universal though the results aren't very great even on reference audio events that are relatively tightly played. sometimes choosing melodic works better but it's still a crapshoot. any thoughts?

b) for songs that might have some pretty large tempo drift since they were recorded as scratch ideas, i decided to split the single audio event so that i could use melodyne *individually* on separate sub events of the parent audio that i knew were relatively spot on. these sub event were both smaller in total bar length and pretty spot on so i thought it would help with more accurate tempo detection.

when i go into melodyne mode for a split event as just described, i presumed it would make more sense to use the melodyne "clip mode" (the one blob icon as decribed above) vs the "track mode" (two blob icon) since i'm only having it analyze a portion of the underlying entire track event. but regardless of whether i use clip or track mode, the tempo map generated by melodyne is often WAY off - ie the range is huge - in these instances like i described earlier!

i normally select the split event in the arrange window first, then COM + M to take only that split clip into melodyne. but because the tempo is often way off, it's almost as if it's still trying to detect tempo on the entire underlying file and not the relatively spot on tempo of just the clip!?

am i misunderstanding this aspect of splitting an event to help make tempo detect more precise in melodyne? ie do i need to bounce the audio event for this to work vs just leaving the trimmed event in place on the track with the remaining audio events before and after it?

note that when i split / trim the event, i move all the audio events on the track so that the splits of the event that i want to analyze tempo on in melodyne line up on a timeline bar beat and then i trim the end of teh event so it falls on a bar beat as well. this means the clip event is setup perfectly for melodyne tempo detection but the events that come before and after are probably no longer lined up on a bar beat so i don't know if that's throwing this thing off?

i have the song tempo set to around what i feel the general tap tempo of the song is but i'm not sure it really matters.

basically i'm wondering if this method of breaking up the single audio track / event into multiple events is a good idea to help melodyne tempo detect better and if the way i went about doing that is the right way vs letting it try and decipher the tempo map of the entire file with all the tempo variations. i basically used the spliting method as a test just to see how well melodyne could detect a part of the audio file that was simple and that i knew was relatively spot on and avoid the parts i knew might be troublesome. but it's giving me a lot of trouble when it would seem it shouldn't. i thought that this approach should work and that i could then break up the audio track into multiple events and let melodyne process tempo detect on each of the events separately to "build a final / solid tempo map" of the parts vs letting it do the whole file. though it seems logical perhaps i'm creating more problems for myself by doing it this way?

you said in the last post that even melodyne isn't going to be perfect but i can't believe how off it is for most of the things i'm doing and yet i got it to work on one file pretty well so i think i'm doing something wrong that is affecting the tempo detection of this product.

c) is there a keyboard shortcut to display the different panes in the inspector and or a way to make them sticky so that they remain after you exit and return to the inspector? i'm working on a laptop with little screen real estate and every time i go into the inspector to work with melodyne and tempo, i have to always do two operations : the first is to set the track / event tempo to "not follow" in the first inspector pane and then make sure the file tempo is being set in the third or FX / event pane of the same inspector. but it loses state every time you come back in to it and those panes are not very easy to resize and drag. since they overlap each other, it's really cumbersome to have to drag all those panes every time you have to do those operations.

thx


I hear ya..! I've also been look at all the info i can find on tempo mapping with Melodyne & there is no mention of what version....so i was thinking it could be done in essential. A LOT of confusion could be avoided if it was stated right from the start. I have since tried to tempo map the way i've seen it described with Melodyne & even the old fashioned way....as described on Studio One Expert & i have to say, i think there must be a missing step. I wont go into the issues here, i'll start another thread later on after i give it another try...

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by jpettit on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:08 am
mickedge wrote1) all the info i can find on tempo mapping with Melodyne & there is no mention of what version....so i was thinking it could be done in essential.

2) I have since tried to tempo map the way i've seen it described with Melodyne & even the old fashioned way....as described on Studio One Expert
1) Yes, Celemony could be clearer. I failed to mention it in my training as I do not have Essential installed because Celemony only allows one version of their product to be installed at once.
Quick answer:
Essential = Make the best guess at tempo map. You CANNOT edit.
Editor = Make the best guess at tempo map. You can edit.
Studio = Make the best guess at tempo map. You can edit.
Standalone = Make the best guess at tempo map across multiple tracks. You can edit and redefine.


2) Not familiar with Studio One Expert video on manual tempo mapping but my series on manual tempo mapping has been on this forum for six years.
viewtopic.php?f=376&t=26510&p=147284&hilit=tempo#p147284

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by mickedge on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:58 pm
jpettit wrote
mickedge wrote1) all the info i can find on tempo mapping with Melodyne & there is no mention of what version....so i was thinking it could be done in essential.

2) I have since tried to tempo map the way i've seen it described with Melodyne & even the old fashioned way....as described on Studio One Expert
1) Yes, Celemony could be clearer. I failed to mention it in my training as I do not have Essential installed because Celemony only allows one version of their product to be installed at once.
Quick answer:
Essential = Make the best guess at tempo map. You CANNOT edit.
Editor = Make the best guess at tempo map. You can edit.
Studio = Make the best guess at tempo map. You can edit.
Standalone = Make the best guess at tempo map across multiple tracks. You can edit and redefine.


2) Not familiar with Studio One Expert video on manual tempo mapping but my series on manual tempo mapping has been on this forum for six years.
viewtopic.php?f=376&t=26510&p=147284&hilit=tempo#p147284


I appreciate the effort you have put into the videos you've done, i've just watched one again, as well as the Studio One Expert one i mentioned....& i am still convinced there is a critical step missing. After watching your vid meticulously, i cannot get any tempo changes at all & i dont even see how it is possible by following the steps in the vid. The only thing i dont have the same, is the macro. Do i have to learn how to make macros first...? I dont know..? Even in the Studio One Expert vid, the tempo changes just seem to appear with no explanation of how to do it. The guy in the video is NOT manually inserting tempo changes..! I am a complete loss. Over the last few months i have been just looking into doing tempo mapping, & now that its something i want to incorporate into my workflow, i am more confused about how to do it....& thats AFTER watching several videos literally dozens of times...

What exactly am i not getting..?

Thanks in advance

Dell XPS-15, i7, 16GB RAM, 250GB SSD, Apollo Twin USB, Studio One 3 Pro, Win 10, guitars....lots of guitars..!
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by jpettit on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:06 pm
Please be more specific.
Are you trying the manuanul non Melodyne method?

The macro I use in that video is on the Exchange.

Have you tried the Melodyne approach with a non essential version?

Tell me how far you get before getting lost.

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by mickedge on Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:45 am
jpettit wrotePlease be more specific.
Are you trying the manuanul non Melodyne method?

The macro I use in that video is on the Exchange.

Have you tried the Melodyne approach with a non essential version?

Tell me how far you get before getting lost.



I'm using the manual method as described in video 2a in your timing training series video. specifically at around 6:10, where you run the macro to insert tempo changes. i dont have the macro (the exchange is not there anymore). Even without the macro, it should be possible right..? Well thats where i come unstuck, if i insert a tempo change, i just get the same tempo..? I honestly cant even see how it is possible unless i just insert tempo changes based on a best guess & i'm pretty sure thats not right.

I've just had another attempt, recorded a guitar part, followed the steps on the video & i am nowhere near being able to get it..

I only have the essential Melodyne right now & upgrading to Editor is not on the cards at the moment..

cheers

Dell XPS-15, i7, 16GB RAM, 250GB SSD, Apollo Twin USB, Studio One 3 Pro, Win 10, guitars....lots of guitars..!
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by joonhoahn on Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:01 am
scottyo7 wroteAh hah.
The OP wasn't clear where the sale price was advertised. ;)

So the sale is via PreSonus w/ a 'redirect' back to Celemony as a 'secret back door price' authorized by them.

I still don't see 'sales' at Celemony site and the 2 links above give "Error". :roll:


Sorry for the confusion, everyone.

No, I was not confused as to the sale price. I was concerned of the deadline.

Anyway, I did manage to buy the upgrade to Melodyne Studio at sale price. Thanks a lot. This thread can close.

EDIT: Oh wait, sorry, I didn't see that one other user had another inquiry.

EDIT: In the future, it would be really helpful to tell us when sales offers like these are going to end so that I can better prepare for this kind of thing.

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